Curse

lakatz · Jul 12, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

Where exactly does it say that? When I made my first purchase in the online store (the one that locked my currency as pounds) it never gave me any warning that once I make this initial purchase that this would be the currency I would have to use for every other purchase I ever make. I don't remember it giving me any sort of disclaimer giving me this information. If I'm wrong, please let me know so that I can start kicking myself for not thinking ahead. By the way, just to avoid any confusion, I'm talking about the GW online store, the one that uses the GW client. Not the NCSoft store on their website.

When you first attempted to make a purchase in the ingame store, you were notified in writing that the store was an extension of PlayNC and that you would have to register at PlayNC.com before you could make the purchase. You were then directed to a registration page, and when you registered with PlayNC it was no different than registering at any other site. Like every other site you were provided with information about policies and procedures including billing procedures, and you were required to check a little box indicating that you'd read and agreed to all the terms. I have no way of finding out if this particular policy was outlined on the registration page since I'm past it and don't know how to view it again without registering again, but...

It states in the user agreement:

5. CAMPAIGN & ADDITIONAL FEATURE PURCHASE

(a) Our fees and billing procedures are published in the registration section of the Web Site, which are incorporated herein by this reference...

If you know how to access that page, I would really appreciate it if you would post a link to it. The same to you CC... if you can access that page, I have little doubt that you'd be more than willing to post it.

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

TTBOMK a complete suite of global currency features should come standard on whatever underlying database software they are using.

I would really appreciate it if you would provide some links to billing software that provides such features. I've looked myself and haven't had any luck. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Presuming they didn't build their own system from the ground up, it should be "just-flip-a-switch" easy. If they did build their own system, frankly, that sort of misdesign is downright incompetent. (And mind you, I used to be a professional programmer, so I'm somewhat qualified to make that sort of statement.)

We don't have any software (other than the microsoft office stuff) that is configured now as it was when we bought it. Our programmers and engineers and the software developers are constantly tweaking and/or adding modules as our needs change. The last module we added to a scheduling program that interfaces with our billing program (JD Edwards... the billing program used throughout the major film and television studio of which we are a department) was offered to us at $25,000, and we're just a lil ol' digital post production house with only a fraction of the customers than PlayNC has. I suspect PlayNC probably uses JDEdwards or one of the other PeopleSoft programs. Or maybe SAP. Are you familiar with any of them?

Frostlight · Jul 12, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I totally agree with everything in the OP.

Many posters had mentioned these things in the first "Bonus Pack Availability" thread as a reason why they will never, ever use the GW online store no matter what. Of course that concern for the most part got buried under the "I do not have a credit card!!!" concern.

Agreed, I have no problem with buying things online with a credit card, such as from Amazon, but the shoddy way the GW online store has been implemented is the primary reason I refuse to link my game account to it, especially since I have an account to risk rather than one-off purchases of physical goods.

If Anet really wants to promote their online store, fixing the issues raised in this thread will probably work better than this exclusive bonus mission pack scheme.

countesscorpula · Jul 12, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

Just so there is no question, it states in the user agreement:

5. CAMPAIGN & ADDITIONAL FEATURE PURCHASE

(a) Our fees and billing procedures are published in the registration section of the Web Site, which are incorporated herein by this reference...

Here's some of the rest of that...
(

All fees are stated in U.S. Dollars. {stuff about being able to continue to play, without requiring purchase of subsiquent campaigns. Other stuff about not be refunded for interuption of service}
If you purchase the Campaign and/or Additional Features online using a credit card, we will automatically charge you through your chosen payment method for the applicable new Campaign and/or Additional Features purchases, plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, where you authorize us to do so.

^^^Payment method of your choice. I'm not being given a choice.

{stuff about you beign the proper user of the credit card}. You agree to promptly notify NC Interactive of any changes to your account number, its expiration date and/or your billing address, and you agree to promptly notify NC Interactive if your account expires or is cancelled for any reason.

It says nothing about a payment method being permanently fixed. It says nothing about a currency being permanently fixed - though it does make a note about using american dollars. The bit about promptly notifying NCsoft of billing changes suggests that alterations in payment method are possible. Furthermore, as stated elsewhere, the NCsoft Store actually allows me to pay in US$. But if I do this I will be denied the "free" bonus material. Free Bonus Material that requires me to buy from the right hand, at $15-18 more than the left hand is not free at all.

I also tracked down the "registration section." It doesn't say anything about permanently fixing a currency in the In-game store either. If you can find a policy that has been publically posted indicating that first purchase through the online store will lock all future purchases to that currency, I will concede that it was my own error in not reading said policy that led to the current problem I am experiencing.

On the other hand, I will not concede that charging 20% more* in Europe than in the US, for the same product, is ethically sound business in a game with a global customer base. A global game with a global community should have a price standard that is at least close in price in the global market. 20-27% is no where near resembling close.

*34.99Euros is 20% more than 39.99US$. 24.99Pounds is 27% more than the US list price - and that's wholesale.

phil_carter · Jul 12, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

^^^Payment method of your choice. I'm not being given a choice.

The bit about promptly notifying NCsoft of billing changes suggests that alterations in payment method are possible.

well, I imagine you did have a choice, you would be given the option to pay by creditcard A, or debitcard B, or whichever other choices were available. If this is not the case then I apologise, but it's a completley separate issue.

You should not have inferred that from the statement, I believe it refers to circumstances under which your account suddenly has no money in it for Anet to take, or you cancel the transaction at your bank.

And lastly this is the way the world is, Im sure the terms are stated somewhere and that there is reference at some point to you being bound to them it would just be very difficult to see or find those terms.

And in reference to some other comments in this thread, paying in another currency in an attempt to bypass unfavourable exchange rates should not be possible (the bank would have to make the conversion at current exchange rates) and would be wrong.

pamelf · Jul 12, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Pounds are hell for Australians...The exchange rate is multiplied by 3. Euro and US are manageable, but pounds is just murder...

bobrath · Jul 12, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil_carter

And lastly this is the way the world is, Im sure the terms are stated somewhere and that there is reference at some point to you being bound to them it would just be very difficult to see or find those terms.

What????? They just have to accept it be cause that's the way the world is? Isn't it also possible that no such statement was made in the terms because the people writing the terms assumed that no such technical bug (or feature) would be implemented? I appreciate that you want to take a side and defend them, but saying that we have to accept the world the way it is... well that's just wrong.

Quote:

And in reference to some other comments in this thread, paying in another currency in an attempt to bypass unfavourable exchange rates should not be possible (the bank would have to make the conversion at current exchange rates) and would be wrong.

There is an entire *legal* market revolving around the conversion rates between currencies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

Its not wrong. What's out of whack here is that if you live in Australia/New Zealand you are having to pay in british pounds a price that is higher then the actual conversion rate would account for. You could walk down the street to an outlet store plunk down an american credit card which would get charged in Australian dollars and taken out of your American account at the curent exchange rate and still pay less then if you purchased through the ingame store at the unfavorable pounds price.

lakatz · Jul 12, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

...I also tracked down the "registration section." It doesn't say anything about permanently fixing a currency in the In-game store either...

Would you mind terribly providing a link to the registration page you found. If you read item 5(a) again, it says that by virtue of reference everything on the registration page is included in the user agreement. That's why the rest of paragraph 5 is moot to your argument, and I didn't include it. If it is on the registration page it is included in the user agreement.

The first place I found the policy yesterday (quickly and easily) when you posted about it was in the knowledge base where it is very articulately stated as the payment policy for Auto Assault, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Lineage, Lineage II. But the knowledge base is not required reading before you "sign" an agreement by checking the little box, so I didn't link to it initially.

http://www.plaync.com/us/support/doc_1183.html?prod=49

The billing currency is determined by the address on your PlayNC master account at the time of original account activation. That currency is permanently set. Changing that address after the game account is activated will not change the currency you are billed in.

If the address on the PlayNC master account is in our European billing system, the account will bill in EUR (€). If the address is in the United Kingdom, the account will be billed in GBP (£). Those living in European countries that are not included in the European billing system will be billed in USD ($).

The clue here, however, that it applies to Guild Wars as well is that each territory is billed from a separate system. With all due respect to Chthon, the former programmer, that's why I surmised changing users' currency choice would be a monumental task. Unless the system linked to the store can automatically move you from one server (or event of the program) to another, it will have to be done manually.

A link to that registration section would be really nice. Thanks!

Fr_3_aK · Jul 12, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Guys guys.... im Australian.... and a tight arse. But i still cave in to Anet and their sleazy ways. If you dont like what they do, too bad. Its all about $$$ to them and they will and do scam us all to get the $$$. Bitching about exchanges rates will do nothing. You need to NOT give them the $$$ to have power. Only then will they care and go to efforts to make it "nicer" for you to part with your money.

Me? I'll be paying English Pounds on the 31st to get those wank bonus missions. Pretty sure i'll die without them. You win Anet, you win.

Chthon · Jul 12, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

I would really appreciate it if you would provide some links to billing software that provides such features. I've looked myself and haven't had any luck. Thanks!

I haven't read it through (nor do I have any desire to) but I think this should be the documentation for the peoplesoft module that has the functionality to change the currency for a given record.

Loviatar · Jul 12, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Human
Although I am not sitting anywhere near countess's computer, she has my permission to speak for me, for one, on the matter of lovitar being a troll and a jackass.

considering the source i can only consider that your disapproval puts me in good company.

i think you have already said that on other threads as well.

Healers Wisper · Jul 12, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

While I can agree with your point that you should be able to change your currency used to current residency, the truth of the matter is very few people in this community are going to do so. Remember that ANet is a buisness and needs to turn a profit to give use new updates, expansions, games ect... So the most basic of buisness plans must be met here. That is does the developer time to develope and implement said change going to be less then the potential revenue generated by said change. Chances are, in this case, that is not going to be met. Mostly due to the extremely small portion of the community that is running around changing countries and what not.

Plus you have to be able to prove that you have changed countries and are not trying to get the price in american dollars (or other currency) because it will be cheaper. Lots of laws prohibit this kind of thing. I think anet is going on the fact that 99% of people are not going to change residency while playing or buying GW product.

Fr_3_aK · Jul 12, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

All i know is i live in australia, ive only ever been on the USA server. I have to pay english pounds. Makes alot of sense.

ducktape · Jul 12, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

One of the reasons I have been refusing to use the store was that, to my knowledge, they never got around to limiting the number of failed login attempts you can have before you can't try to log in anymore for a while. Failing to implement that means that someone can use a brute-force attack program on your account guessing every password combination until they get it. I don't care if your password is i8r!mp*N(o$f~z/kJ if someone has an unlimited amount of time to have their hacking program guess your password, they will guess it right eventually and then you're screwed. Does anyone who is unfortunately tied to the store know or can you test whether or not they have made a limit on the number of failed login attempts you can have at a time? Both through the game client and the plaync website? It needs to be on both, and I doubt it is yet.

On the issue of currency differences in the store, I live in the USA and one time my credit card number was part of a batch that got stolen from a store's server, and then my credit card was used to buy something from an italian website, and that italian website charged my credit card $1000 in euros. My credit card company not only charged me $1000 but it charged me extra money (currency exchange fee) for paying in euros with my credit card instead of dollars. I did notice the $1000 fraud charge right away and got it removed and I got a new card, yay. Anyways I'm betting all those poor people who are stuck paying in the store with a currency type that they don't ever otherwise use will also get slapped with a currency exchange fee from their bank or credit card company in addition to paying 20% extra for unfavorable exchange rates. Double uncool.

So, the store security sucks, the store is a currency nazi, and the store makes it impossible for people without certain brands of credit cards, or people who live in "blacklisted" regions from even buying anything at all. This means store customers either put their account in jeopardy by shopping at the store, have to pay more than they should to shop at the store, or are denied the ability to shop at the store even if they don't mind risking their account and paying extra. Why does ANet/NCSoft wonder why their store isn't getting as much business as they'd like? It seems obvious.

countesscorpula · Jul 12, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

http://www.plaync.com/us/support/doc_1183.html?prod=49

The billing currency is determined by the address on your PlayNC master account at the time of original account activation. That currency is permanently set. Changing that address after the game account is activated will not change the currency you are billed in.

If the address on the PlayNC master account is in our European billing system, the account will bill in EUR (€). If the address is in the United Kingdom, the account will be billed in GBP (£). Those living in European countries that are not included in the European billing system will be billed in USD ($).

The clue here, however, that it applies to Guild Wars as well is that each territory is billed from a separate system.

If this is the case (a posting in the PlayNC knowledge Base), how come my inerface with the Play NC store is in US dollars? Everything is linked to the PlayNC master account and runs through the info on PlayNC, right? Well, while I am logged in to PlayNC, it displays all purchases in US$. If the PlayNC store can do that, there is no reason the InGame store can't.

Also, was this in the Knowledge base 18 months ago when I made my purchase? It may have been... may not have been. That is the policy now, but there was nothing obvious to indicate that as the policy when I made my first purchase. Plain and simple.

Edit: The KB article indicates a date in early 2007. I would have made my first purchase in April of 2006. I really don't think this article was there when I made my purchase. Nor it this informatin readily available to anyone going through the steps in purchasing in the online store.

Onarik Amrak · Jul 12, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Healers Wisper

While I can agree with your point that you should be able to change your currency used to current residency, the truth of the matter is very few people in this community are going to do so. Remember that ANet is a buisness and needs to turn a profit to give use new updates, expansions, games ect... So the most basic of buisness plans must be met here. That is does the developer time to develope and implement said change going to be less then the potential revenue generated by said change. Chances are, in this case, that is not going to be met. Mostly due to the extremely small portion of the community that is running around changing countries and what not.

Plus you have to be able to prove that you have changed countries and are not trying to get the price in american dollars (or other currency) because it will be cheaper. Lots of laws prohibit this kind of thing. I think anet is going on the fact that 99% of people are not going to change residency while playing or buying GW product.

What about those of us who are from Australia and New Zealand? Why should we be stuck paying in Pounds, which have a very unfavourable exchange rate as well as incurring extra fees from our creditors for the money conversion?

Fair go...

countesscorpula · Jul 12, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil_carter

And in reference to some other comments in this thread, paying in another currency in an attempt to bypass unfavourable exchange rates should not be possible (the bank would have to make the conversion at current exchange rates) and would be wrong.

Currency hopping is one possibility, but the exchange rate being used in the online store (24.99 pounds to 39.99USD = .62:1) hasn't been seen since 2003. Throughout 2007, the conversion has been closer to .50:1. Perhaps their market research indicates that the 24.99 Pounds is the price the British market is willing to bear, based on relative wages/cost of living/whathaveyou. That may be all well and good for those living in the UK, but they've attributed these same qualities to a country on the otherside of the planet, with a currency and lifestyle that is nothing like the one for which they've made the basis. The United States was once a British colony, surely we can attribute all things discovered in market research in England to anywhere in the US. That's ludicrous. While I was down south, I was frequently told that the Aussie culture was much closer to that of America than that of England. (like pears are closer to apples than oranges... not the same, but closer.)

So one, they are pinning a healthy sized customer base to a culture and currency that is as far removed from them as penguins are from flight. Two, the currency exchange they are using in the online store is so out of date that if it were a computer, you would have replaced/updated/upgraded it long ago.

Healers Wisper · Jul 12, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

What about those of us who are from Australia and New Zealand? Why should we be stuck paying in Pounds, which have a very unfavourable exchange rate as well as incurring extra fees from our creditors for the money conversion?

Fair go...

I am not saying its fair, i am saying what is common buisness practice and alot of time how laws/taxes are set up. I dont think anyone should have to pay more for any product then smeone else regardless of where they live. Unfortunately thats not how life works.

lakatz · Jul 12, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

If this is the case (a posting in the PlayNC knowledge Base), how come my inerface with the Play NC store is in US dollars? Everything is linked to the PlayNC master account and runs through the info on PlayNC, right? Well, while I am logged in to PlayNC, it displays all purchases in US$. If the PlayNC store can do that, there is no reason the InGame store can't...

An excellent question, and, IMO, well worth the extra effort you will inevitably have to extend in communicating with account support if you want an answer to it. Again this is an area where patience is a plus. If you do continue your communication with them, I'd love to learn the outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

Also, was this in the Knowledge base 18 months ago when I made my purchase?...

Okay now I'm really confused. Did you make your first purchase in the in-game store (integrated into the GW browser) or the online store at the PlayNC.com site? The in-game store hasn't been open for 18 months. It's only been open for just about a year. If you made your first purchase in the online store in USD, that should be your currency of choice according to their policy, and the BPS in the in-game store, in that case, should be reversible.

EDIT:

For the record I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the degree of angst expended on this issue based on a little experiment I just did with today's exchange rate.

The amount one has to spend in the in-game store in order to receive the bonus package:

USD 29 = AUSD 38.26
BPS 17 = AUSD 40.04
Euro 26 = AUSD 41.61

USD 29 = BPS 14.56

The difference between the USD to AUSD and BPS to AUSD exchange rates is AUSD 1.78. The difference between the USD to BPS exchange rate and the BPS 17 minimum purchase requirement is BPS 2.44 (or AUSD 5.75! or USD 4.36!). Holy guano Batman! Is 1.78 really worth all the angst? If so, can we get a boohoo from the British in the house? It seems only fair.

countesscorpula · Jul 12, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

An excellent question, and, IMO, well worth the extra effort you will inevitably have to extend in communicating with account support if you want an answer to it. Again this is an area where patience is a plus. If you do continue your communication with them, I'd love to learn the outcome.

So would I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

Okay now I'm really confused. Did you make your first purchase in the in-game store (integrated into the GW browser) or the online store at the PlayNC.com site? The in-game store hasn't been open for 18 months. It's only been open for just about a year. If you made your first purchase in the online store in USD, that should be your currency of choice according to their policy, and the BPS in the in-game store, in that case, should be reversible.

Let's see if we can clear up the confussion. I was in NZ when Factions was released. I asked at 4 different software retailers in town if they stocked Factions (the only retailers in town btw). None did. As a result I had to purchase Factions directly from the publisher. So I logged into PlayNC, and purchased a copy of Factions. This was my first purchase through PlayNC and it was done on my master account. If all future purchases are based on the curency of this transaction, and my current PlayNC store indicates US$, I don't know why the GWStore (which uses the PlayNC master account info) is charging in Euros.
Later, with 8 professions and 6 slots, I was inclined to purchase a character slot when they were made available in the new online store. I purchased two in the space of a month. As these were available only through the online store, this must be where i purchased them. Was the currency in Euros for that purchase... could have been (though I'm not sure why if my master account shows Canada as my first location), but I thought nothing of it, as I was in a foreign country, and I was going to have to be converting currencies anyway. Not to mention, the end result of a percent on a $8 purchase isn't much to fuss about - as you pointed out below.

Which leads us to the present. There is a bonus pack being offered. It can only be acquired by making a purchase in teh In-Game store. The only thing in the in game store in teh coming future that I have any use for is GW:EN. Purchasing Gwen in Euros is going to cost me $15 more than it would if I were to purchase it in US$, all things as they are. If I purchase from a local retailer, I'd probably be paying less than the listed InGame store price - but A-Net gets less profit due to middleman, so I understand "no bonus pack for you" for that. However, the PlayNC store will let me make the purchas in US$. PlayNC is a purchase direct from the publisher - not retail middleman, no packaging, no shipping, exact same everything that would be received from the InGame store EXCEPT the bonus mission pack. A-Net gets everything they want (smaller overhead), and I either get charged $15 more, or no "free" bonus mission pack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

EDIT:

For the record I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the degree of angst expended on this issue based on a little experiment I just did with today's exchange rate.

If there were more things available to make that bonus pack purchase requirement, you'd have a chance to be closer on target to the "low cost" target. But there aren't. You already have slots, 3 campaigns, and unlocked all skills (like me and many many others), you have no need for anything in the online store but GW:EN. Gaile as much as said that the promotion is intended to motivate people to purchase GW:EN from the online store. So if we are looking at spending we really should look at the price of GW:EN, cause that's what this comes down to.

Buying GW:EN

In US - $39.99 US = $39.99 US
In UK - L24.99 GBP = $50.70 US
IN EU - E34.99 Euro = $48.20 US

These are wholesale exchange rates. When exchanges are made on credit cards, the bank issueing the card will use their retail exchange rate. This is typically a difference of 3-5 cents per dollar(if you are lucky). So purchasing $50 US is going to cost you and additional $2.50 above wholesale exchange rate. Plus, there will be a fee for making the exchange - another dollar or two. So now Customer A in the US is paying their $39.99 for the game, and Customer B, who is located in Chicago - but the online store has him paying in Pounds - is paying $54.20. Not quite $15 dollars difference, but close enough. Yes, there is an actual player in Chicago who is being asked to pay in Pounds. It's a thread in the Questions forum.

$1.72 isn't much to kick a fuss about, but $15 is. To me at least. That's roughly a 25% hike in price.

allience · Jul 12, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

i agree with the Op. i posted a while ago about the gw store issues and stuff u can never change and of course my posts got ignored. it seems that the same thing happens yet again. it's funny to see that there's 3 pages already and not a single reply from anet. in other threads like the paypal thing, u'd see gaile reply every few posts. nice costumer service anet, really GG.

to everybody else, make sure u didn't mistype your birthday dae wrong on the store thing coz u can never change ur pass again lol.